I've swung back and forth between non-pedal and PSG over the decades, starting on non-pedal as a teen and migrating into PSG.
One of my biggest "Aha!" moments was to see Tom Morrell reeling off quite "bebopy" single not Jazz solos on a non-pedal S10 shortly after he lost his PSG in a fire. It was then, that I started to pay more attention to even PSG C6th (mostly) players playing Jazz and Bebop single note solos and improvisation... and finding out that some PSG players, like Buddy Emmons did not or only sparsely use pedals and levers, while other relied completely on them.
When Maurice came out with his non-pedal recordings and showing up at shows with his MSA SuperSLIDE and doing pretty much all we've heard him play for Decades on S12 Universals of both directions (E9th or Bb6th based), I wanted IN on the kind'a voodoo! Maurice took me up for 3 days in 2000. Just trying to wrap my head around playing Jazz on non-pedal. Him on his Boen S12 and me on my Rickenbacher B10. And then, I left... the US, my wife, my business and my steel in road cases... for almost 20 years out straight.
About 7 years back I got a beautiful S12 Universal from MSA. After less than a week, I had ripped out the E9th pedals and after some back and forth tuned to C6th... similar to Maurices non-pedal S12 and decided to make or break it a playing single note what I had had spinning in my head for DECADES. Not Western Swing or Hillbilly Jazz (which, don't take me wrong, I still LOVE)... but even more so, NOT listening to steel players (pedal or non) for most of the time. Rather concentrating on learning basic functional harmony and Jazz-Bebop language and, as Maurice called it, "organize the neck", find where is IV? from any position and learn to play thru the changes. I discovered new names like Johnny Hodges (whom's playing I adore), rediscovered BB King from the JAZZ Blues side... and so many more.
Anyways... I am interested if that's a journey some others are or have taken on non-pedal, because although I play on an S12 with 6P & 8K, all my single note playing is non-pedal.
... J-D.
Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
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J D Sauser
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- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
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Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Twayn Williams
- Posts: 1450
- Joined: 12 Jun 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Portland, OR
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
I'm finding E13 on my 6-string to be pretty well suited to swing/jazz lines, though I'm mainly interested in a more swing/gypsy jazz sound rather that a bop sound. E13 "clusters" the chords closer together -- i.e. you can get a ii-V-I within 2 frets -- and you get that magic rootless dom 9 | minor 6th | minor 7b5 on the bottom 4 strings.
I currently pretty married to 6 strings, but I do have a nice D-8 Stringmaster. I've recently been thinking of putting an alternate E13 tuning on it to facilitate some more close intervals on the top strings, i.e. maybe an F# above the top E with a low B. Or something.
OTOH, I've just recently become obsessed with B11, but like with C6/A6 I'm finding I dislike the distance between the I chord and the ii - V pocket. Still, early days!
I currently pretty married to 6 strings, but I do have a nice D-8 Stringmaster. I've recently been thinking of putting an alternate E13 tuning on it to facilitate some more close intervals on the top strings, i.e. maybe an F# above the top E with a low B. Or something.
OTOH, I've just recently become obsessed with B11, but like with C6/A6 I'm finding I dislike the distance between the I chord and the ii - V pocket. Still, early days!
Primitive Utility Steel
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Paul Seager
- Posts: 536
- Joined: 20 Aug 2010 7:41 am
- Location: Augsburg, Germany
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
I admire players that go the Bebop route but must admit that I don't particularly like the music and like Twayn, prefer the earlier swing styles.
Even with those songs, playing with half-tones above/below the target notes or chromatic riffs are challenging on a "slippery one-finger" instrument.
I once played a jazz set and whilst Ellington and Goodman sings were manageable I completely sucked at the Parker songs I tried - thank goodness for guitarists!
Good luck on your journey J.D.!
Even with those songs, playing with half-tones above/below the target notes or chromatic riffs are challenging on a "slippery one-finger" instrument.
I once played a jazz set and whilst Ellington and Goodman sings were manageable I completely sucked at the Parker songs I tried - thank goodness for guitarists!
Good luck on your journey J.D.!
On your D8, try B11 with a E & G# on strings 8 & 7, then you get ii-V7-I Maj7 in every position (plus a whole lot more!)Twayn Williams wrote: 9 Jan 2026 7:49 pm..., I've just recently become obsessed with B11, but like with C6/A6 I'm finding I dislike the distance between the I chord and the ii - V pocket. Still, early days!
\paul
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David M Brown
- Posts: 962
- Joined: 15 Nov 2016 7:47 am
- Location: California, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
I'm from New Orleans, jazz is my folk music, and have been a pro player since the 1970's.
I've played all styles of jazz, on guitar, bass, tenor banjo, lap steel, clarinet, sax, etc.
In terms of lap steel, I find the instrument better for swing than for bop...but I've played some bop tunes on steel and have enjoyed it. However the regular guitar is much more idiomatic than the steel for bop playing.
I've played all styles of jazz, on guitar, bass, tenor banjo, lap steel, clarinet, sax, etc.
In terms of lap steel, I find the instrument better for swing than for bop...but I've played some bop tunes on steel and have enjoyed it. However the regular guitar is much more idiomatic than the steel for bop playing.
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Michael Kiese
- Posts: 490
- Joined: 17 Jul 2023 12:27 pm
- Location: Richmond, Virginia (Hometown: Pearl City, HI)
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Aloha JD,
Just adding my 2¢ for the sake of posterity and discussion.
Short answer: Yes Buddy pretty much solo'd on straight C6. Lots of great blistering solos from Doug Jernigan on straight C6 on YouTube from the TSGA. Contact Doug Jernigan, and start lessons. That's the quickest way to learning the language and getting vocabulary under your fingers.
https://www.digndoug.com
Long answer....lol. Just trying to save you time by avoiding common pitfalls.
The true learning and the fun occurs on the Bandstand. So make the choices that will consistently get you on the bandstand over and over again.
I've played tons of jazz combo gigs in my life. Mostly society gigs. Dinners, balls, some shows, etc.
Audiences like melody and songs they can recognize. The more you abandon melody and focus on improvisation, the more you abandon the listener and make the music more about the player. There is a fine balance between serving the song, serving the listener, and serving yourself.
On another recent thread, I talked about KNOWING the melody and giving it due respect and honor. If you "improvise" the melody, you don't really know it. Melody and improvisation are really the same skillset, it's just that Melody is much more labored and Improvisation is in the moment.
Melody is quite literally one of the best ways to navigate a chord progression. If you study the melody, you'll learn the song.
The tradition of jazz is to play the melody with the entire form of the song, then improvise over the chord progression, then come back to the melody and end the song.
A dangerous (yet seductive) trap is improvising the entire song and considering your improvisations "creating your own melodies"....more often than not, it sounds like "noodling".
Honestly, NONE of us on the entire forum can write a better melody than Antonio Carlos Jobim, Henry Mancini, George Gershwin, Oscar and Hammerstain, Irving Berlin, or Cole Porter (just to name a few). Because if we COULD write melodies at their level, we WOULD be writing our own material.
Therefore, it is self indulgent and big-headed for a musician to improvise the "head", which is a melody written by a great composer or songwriter. Again, this is just my OPINION. The melody and the lyrics are what made the song successful and are why the song is cemented in the Great American Songbook. Melody and lyrics are what listeners will recognize. So play the melody and sing! So simple.
Changing the Melody as a musician is the same thing as a Singer changing the Lyrics. Just as you wouldn't improvise lyrics to someone else's song, don't improvise their melody. Improvise over the improv section, not the head. Serve the song by honoring the melody. Play it as best as you can play it, from your heart. It won't be exact and perfect, but that's fine. Then, improv to your heart's content, but come BACK to the melody to button it up.
Far too often on Jazz gigs, songs with short melodies will be picked, just so the entire band can take turns improvising for 20 mins. That's the best way to lose an audience. I once played RecordaMe for 30 mins, and when it came to my turn "Hey guitar player, want to take a solo?" I literally said "No, I want to end the song, there has been enough solos".
On the last Jazz gig I've done, it was at a fine dining restaurant. I lead a Jazz trio of 2 guitars and upright bass. It was a background music type gig. We traded off singing, and kept songs relatively short. All 3 of us didn't need to solo on every song, and we gave each other songs to spotlight/highlight each player. It was light, fun, and not stressful.
But then I had the notion to bust out my Rickenbacher ACE on a few tunes. I played "Sleepwalk". The ENTIRE restaurant stopped talking, and stopped eating. It got QUIET. Then I ended the song, and the ENTIRE restaurant burst into applause. That NEVER happens, especially on a society gig.
I knew that they weren't applauding me. They were applauding my choice of picking a great song on a great instrument. Lord knows I didn't perform the song perfectly.
Steel still has its magic. When you play a good song, and a good melody, magic will happen.
So to finally address Bebop...it's great as an art form, but it was not commercially successful for a reason. It abandoned the listener. If you look at the career of the great Buddy Emmons, he abandoned the bread and butter country music that paid the bills and went into the jazz bebop direction. He paid a price for that.
Furthermore, when I talk to "serious" jazz musicians. They don't know who Buddy Emmons is. He's not on their listening radar. Of the ones that do know Buddy, they don't really consider him as someone they'd like to emulate and sound like for jazz. Put differently, Buddy was a great jazz/bebop player in the steel guitar world, but he didn't manage to break into the world of Jazz and Bebop itself. That's just the truth, and it's empirically evident.
If you focus solely on Bebop, you won't find an audience. It would be far better to play some swing tunes, and try some bebop language over the improv section.
At the end of the day, there are no rules, so do whatever you want and follow your muse where ever it goes. Just do it with open eyes and an informed mind.
I'll just say that for me, music is FAR MORE enjoyable when I play music with musicians who are better people than they are musicians, and play songs that listeners recognize and enjoy.
It's so much more fun to perform music live in front of an audience, rather than in your music room behind a computer.
Last bit of advice, if you ever do get hired playing a gig at a restaurant, DON'T play Bebop. When people sit down for a meal, they want to enjoy their meal and have a conversation. They don't want to shout over a loud self-indulgent band, regardless of the genre of music.
To sum up, prioritize melody over improvisation, and you'll do *just fine*....the blistering speed and fast solos will come. And if they don't, you'll at least be performing in front of a live audience and not in front of your computer.
The true learning and the fun occurs on the Bandstand. So make the choices that will consistently get you on a bandstand over and over again.
Mahalo for allowing me to contribute my 2¢.
Enjoy!
Just adding my 2¢ for the sake of posterity and discussion.
Short answer: Yes Buddy pretty much solo'd on straight C6. Lots of great blistering solos from Doug Jernigan on straight C6 on YouTube from the TSGA. Contact Doug Jernigan, and start lessons. That's the quickest way to learning the language and getting vocabulary under your fingers.
https://www.digndoug.com
Long answer....lol. Just trying to save you time by avoiding common pitfalls.
The true learning and the fun occurs on the Bandstand. So make the choices that will consistently get you on the bandstand over and over again.
I've played tons of jazz combo gigs in my life. Mostly society gigs. Dinners, balls, some shows, etc.
Audiences like melody and songs they can recognize. The more you abandon melody and focus on improvisation, the more you abandon the listener and make the music more about the player. There is a fine balance between serving the song, serving the listener, and serving yourself.
On another recent thread, I talked about KNOWING the melody and giving it due respect and honor. If you "improvise" the melody, you don't really know it. Melody and improvisation are really the same skillset, it's just that Melody is much more labored and Improvisation is in the moment.
Melody is quite literally one of the best ways to navigate a chord progression. If you study the melody, you'll learn the song.
The tradition of jazz is to play the melody with the entire form of the song, then improvise over the chord progression, then come back to the melody and end the song.
A dangerous (yet seductive) trap is improvising the entire song and considering your improvisations "creating your own melodies"....more often than not, it sounds like "noodling".
Honestly, NONE of us on the entire forum can write a better melody than Antonio Carlos Jobim, Henry Mancini, George Gershwin, Oscar and Hammerstain, Irving Berlin, or Cole Porter (just to name a few). Because if we COULD write melodies at their level, we WOULD be writing our own material.
Therefore, it is self indulgent and big-headed for a musician to improvise the "head", which is a melody written by a great composer or songwriter. Again, this is just my OPINION. The melody and the lyrics are what made the song successful and are why the song is cemented in the Great American Songbook. Melody and lyrics are what listeners will recognize. So play the melody and sing! So simple.
Changing the Melody as a musician is the same thing as a Singer changing the Lyrics. Just as you wouldn't improvise lyrics to someone else's song, don't improvise their melody. Improvise over the improv section, not the head. Serve the song by honoring the melody. Play it as best as you can play it, from your heart. It won't be exact and perfect, but that's fine. Then, improv to your heart's content, but come BACK to the melody to button it up.
Far too often on Jazz gigs, songs with short melodies will be picked, just so the entire band can take turns improvising for 20 mins. That's the best way to lose an audience. I once played RecordaMe for 30 mins, and when it came to my turn "Hey guitar player, want to take a solo?" I literally said "No, I want to end the song, there has been enough solos".
On the last Jazz gig I've done, it was at a fine dining restaurant. I lead a Jazz trio of 2 guitars and upright bass. It was a background music type gig. We traded off singing, and kept songs relatively short. All 3 of us didn't need to solo on every song, and we gave each other songs to spotlight/highlight each player. It was light, fun, and not stressful.
But then I had the notion to bust out my Rickenbacher ACE on a few tunes. I played "Sleepwalk". The ENTIRE restaurant stopped talking, and stopped eating. It got QUIET. Then I ended the song, and the ENTIRE restaurant burst into applause. That NEVER happens, especially on a society gig.
I knew that they weren't applauding me. They were applauding my choice of picking a great song on a great instrument. Lord knows I didn't perform the song perfectly.
Steel still has its magic. When you play a good song, and a good melody, magic will happen.
So to finally address Bebop...it's great as an art form, but it was not commercially successful for a reason. It abandoned the listener. If you look at the career of the great Buddy Emmons, he abandoned the bread and butter country music that paid the bills and went into the jazz bebop direction. He paid a price for that.
Furthermore, when I talk to "serious" jazz musicians. They don't know who Buddy Emmons is. He's not on their listening radar. Of the ones that do know Buddy, they don't really consider him as someone they'd like to emulate and sound like for jazz. Put differently, Buddy was a great jazz/bebop player in the steel guitar world, but he didn't manage to break into the world of Jazz and Bebop itself. That's just the truth, and it's empirically evident.
If you focus solely on Bebop, you won't find an audience. It would be far better to play some swing tunes, and try some bebop language over the improv section.
At the end of the day, there are no rules, so do whatever you want and follow your muse where ever it goes. Just do it with open eyes and an informed mind.
I'll just say that for me, music is FAR MORE enjoyable when I play music with musicians who are better people than they are musicians, and play songs that listeners recognize and enjoy.
It's so much more fun to perform music live in front of an audience, rather than in your music room behind a computer.
Last bit of advice, if you ever do get hired playing a gig at a restaurant, DON'T play Bebop. When people sit down for a meal, they want to enjoy their meal and have a conversation. They don't want to shout over a loud self-indulgent band, regardless of the genre of music.
To sum up, prioritize melody over improvisation, and you'll do *just fine*....the blistering speed and fast solos will come. And if they don't, you'll at least be performing in front of a live audience and not in front of your computer.
The true learning and the fun occurs on the Bandstand. So make the choices that will consistently get you on a bandstand over and over again.
Mahalo for allowing me to contribute my 2¢.
Enjoy!
Aloha,
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
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K Maul
- Posts: 2204
- Joined: 14 Feb 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
The folk-jazz-classical-world music-etc player/composer David Amram once told me this story:
A guy he knew was a truly gifted virtuoso pianist who was top of his class at Juliard. David visited him at a little Manhattan bistro where he was playing hardcore jazz with a trio. During the break they were talking. David said to him “ man, you could be touring the WORLD with symphonies playing
in concert halls and music festivals . Why are you only playing jazz in little joints like this?”
His friend looked at him and said “I just don’t like big crowds”.
Turns out it was a joke but the funniest ones have the ring of truth in them.
A guy he knew was a truly gifted virtuoso pianist who was top of his class at Juliard. David visited him at a little Manhattan bistro where he was playing hardcore jazz with a trio. During the break they were talking. David said to him “ man, you could be touring the WORLD with symphonies playing
in concert halls and music festivals . Why are you only playing jazz in little joints like this?”
His friend looked at him and said “I just don’t like big crowds”.
Turns out it was a joke but the funniest ones have the ring of truth in them.
KEVIN MAUL: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Danelectro, Evans, Fender, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, Xotic, Yamaha, ZKing.
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Tim Toberer
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: 23 Oct 2021 11:58 am
- Location: Nebraska, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Steel guitars in all their incarnations are wonderful for chord soloing which is what drew me to the instrument. Trying to play scales on these things is pretty ridiculous. My favorite Jazz is the Jump blues stuff which seems to just precede the Bebop era and slightly overlap. Bebop infused blues with a little Rock and Roll DNA mixed in. Add fiddles electric mandolin and steel guitar and you have Billy Jack Wills. I love solo Bebop piano but I tire of listening to horns churning out endless lines pretty quickly. Lester Young is an exception, but he is not really a Bebopper. Early Coltrane is something from another galaxy, probably closer to a religion. I build instruments and play for myself, it is something like therapy, so better for others if I have time to play. I don't think that is selfish lol.
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Michael Kiese
- Posts: 490
- Joined: 17 Jul 2023 12:27 pm
- Location: Richmond, Virginia (Hometown: Pearl City, HI)
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Aloha Tim,Tim Toberer wrote: 10 Jan 2026 6:23 am I build instruments and play for myself, it is something like therapy, so better for others if I have time to play. I don't think that is selfish lol.
Oh for sure. However you enjoy music is how you enjoy it. In that sense, everything is valid.
Music becomes self-serving when musicians perform for themselves, and subject audiences to their self indulgent performances.
Many musicians don't realize that we are entertainers first and foremost, and that we're there for the audience to make their day a little bit better. Not the other way around.
When we go out in public and perform, our audiences most often didn't ask for us to play for them. Customers enter an establishment and we happen to be performing. The exception is ticketed performances where you command your own following.
If we're performing live, we want to play in such a manner to draw more customers to enter the establishment.
I've witnessed many a live performance at a bar, restaurant, or venue, where I was hanging out with friends and family, then a band comes in and plays too loud, or is solo heavy. You can no longer have a conversation with a friend or family, and the experience is ruined. I've personally witnessed on many an occasion, bands clear out a room. The audience is your honest feedback.
That type of musical self indulgence in large part has lead to the downfall of many genres of music, and even live music in general.
It's a "watch me do my thing, and appreciate me" vs. "I'm here for you to make your day a little better."
Bebop is a great case study on that phenomenon, which is why I bring it up. I've seen so many musicians and bands lose gigs because of it. Self indulgence is the most common pitfall I have witnessed amongst musicians in general, but jazz musicians especially in particular.
Just putting out this word of caution for posterity and for the benefit of anybody who sees value in it.
I'm sure many would disagree.
But in your case, I would 100% agree with you that playing for yourself and building your own instruments is completely valid and not selfish at all.
Just my 2¢. Take it with a grain of salt.
Enjoy!
Aloha,
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
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Marshall Woodall
- Posts: 76
- Joined: 6 Feb 2022 10:04 pm
- Location: New York, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Well said Michael. These sentiments apply to any creative art that is grounded in history if you really think about it.
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Michael Kiese
- Posts: 490
- Joined: 17 Jul 2023 12:27 pm
- Location: Richmond, Virginia (Hometown: Pearl City, HI)
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Mahalo nui, Marshall. I'm glad to see feedback that my contributions have had value for others.Marshall Woodall wrote: 10 Jan 2026 8:37 am Well said Michael. These sentiments apply to any creative art that is grounded in history if you really think about it.
Enjoy!
Aloha,
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
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Tim Toberer
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: 23 Oct 2021 11:58 am
- Location: Nebraska, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Would you please tell my wife and cats that.Michael Kiese wrote: 10 Jan 2026 8:13 amAloha Tim,Tim Toberer wrote: 10 Jan 2026 6:23 am I build instruments and play for myself, it is something like therapy, so better for others if I have time to play. I don't think that is selfish lol.
Oh for sure. However you enjoy music is how you enjoy it. In that sense, everything is valid.
Seriously though, you make some good points. It is an uncommon skill to be able to do both (make art that is for you that others enjoy as well). As an artist, if you want to be successful, you have to balance this carefully. This is why in my opinion most of the greatest artists (not that I am one of them lol!)never get famous until long after their death or never at all. When people go to see Bebop (do people still do that?), hopefully they know what they are getting into.
I sort of have a fantasy about starting up a little band to do maybe weddings and such, (quiet bar?)I would be playing stuff like Sweet Leilani, not Hot House! Although Hot house might go okay later in the evening. Hmmm
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Tim Toberer
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: 23 Oct 2021 11:58 am
- Location: Nebraska, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
For anyone who is interested in learning Bebop (still the language of modern jazz) I think the curve is steep for most unless you are just gifted. Finding the right teacher is crucial and not easy. I think the right teacher/method can be very different for people since we learn things differently. For any lapsteelers who play C6 or 6th tuning, you have a wonderful teacher right here in Mike Neer, who I have learned so much from, just through his generous interactions on the forum.
For me playing a made up tuning on pedal steel, I haven't found any single method or teacher, but there are a couple sources I can recommend. For Harmonic concepts there are tons of great resources in this thread relating to Barry Harris.
viewtopic.php?t=407073&hilit=Barry+Harris
For Melodic playing Barry has some wonderful concepts, but they are quite advanced. If you are on training wheels like me, I have found a melodic Guru in Willie Thomas. His method falls very nicely in line with Barry Harris, but he starts with the most basic building blocks using pentatonic scales you already know. I highly recommend this method and wish I found it much sooner.
He has a bunch of free lessons if you sigh up on his site, but many of them are accessible through his YouTube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/@JazzEveryone/videos
Here is another thread I started over on the pedal steel side viewtopic.php?t=411421&hilit=jazz+exercises
For me playing a made up tuning on pedal steel, I haven't found any single method or teacher, but there are a couple sources I can recommend. For Harmonic concepts there are tons of great resources in this thread relating to Barry Harris.
viewtopic.php?t=407073&hilit=Barry+Harris
For Melodic playing Barry has some wonderful concepts, but they are quite advanced. If you are on training wheels like me, I have found a melodic Guru in Willie Thomas. His method falls very nicely in line with Barry Harris, but he starts with the most basic building blocks using pentatonic scales you already know. I highly recommend this method and wish I found it much sooner.
He has a bunch of free lessons if you sigh up on his site, but many of them are accessible through his YouTube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/@JazzEveryone/videos
Here is another thread I started over on the pedal steel side viewtopic.php?t=411421&hilit=jazz+exercises
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Paul Seager
- Posts: 536
- Joined: 20 Aug 2010 7:41 am
- Location: Augsburg, Germany
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
On a recent visit to England, I went to a jazz matinée; a drummer-led, bebop Quartett featuring that rare beast, a vibraphone.Michael Kiese wrote: 10 Jan 2026 8:13 am...Self indulgence is the most common pitfall I have witnessed amongst musicians in general, but jazz musicians especially in particular
Their pianist was sooo talented ... he saw no need to end his solos! Late in the set, during a particularly lengthy piano solo, the drummer was audibly heard screaming to the vibraphonist "for [****]sake play the [*******] head!"
It got a laugh from the musos in the audience!
\paul
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Twayn Williams
- Posts: 1450
- Joined: 12 Jun 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Portland, OR
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Heh. In the gypsy/swing scene around here, the standard is to take only 1 chorus for solos. The straight ahead scene OTOH seems to like to take 2 choruses minimum as standard. I'll take 2 choruses if I'm the only soloist, but rarely anymore than that. Say what you need to say, then shut up is my motto 
Primitive Utility Steel
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Michael Kiese
- Posts: 490
- Joined: 17 Jul 2023 12:27 pm
- Location: Richmond, Virginia (Hometown: Pearl City, HI)
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
That's hilarious! It's even worse that the comment came from the drummer. When a drummer starts yearning for melody, you know the train REALLY got off the track! lol.Paul Seager wrote: 11 Jan 2026 11:48 am Their pianist was sooo talented ... he saw no need to end his solos! Late in the set, during a particularly lengthy piano solo, the drummer was audibly heard screaming to the vibraphonist "for [****]sake play the [*******] head!"
It got a laugh from the musos in the audience!
At the risk of putting my foot in my mouth, and further derailing the thread (lol)...I've noticed more often than you'd think, those types of musicians are on the spectrum. In another life, I used to be a skills trainer for autistic children in Hawaii Public Schools. If you've spent enough time around people with autism, you start to notice "tells". It's not a dig on anyone, at all. A medical condition is no one's fault. Just an observation based on accumulated life experience.
Coming into contact with a musician on the autism spectrum is not as rare as you'd think. There are a fair amount of high functioning autists in the musician pool. It explains a lot of behavior and choices. It's not something that is talked about much, but it's good to be aware of.
I've found myself in enough situations with musicians who are on the spectrum to where I've noticed, for some reason, they gravitate towards jazz and classical more than any other genre.
For example, I've never seen someone with Asperger's singing "Bubbles In My Beer" at a Honky Tonk. lol. But there's a first time for everything!
Last edited by Michael Kiese on 12 Jan 2026 7:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Aloha,
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
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Michael Kiese
- Posts: 490
- Joined: 17 Jul 2023 12:27 pm
- Location: Richmond, Virginia (Hometown: Pearl City, HI)
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Aloha Tim!Tim Toberer wrote: 10 Jan 2026 9:26 am I sort of have a fantasy about starting up a little band to do maybe weddings and such, (quiet bar?)I would be playing stuff like Sweet Leilani, not Hot House! Although Hot house might go okay later in the evening. Hmmm
I HIGHLY encourage you to make that dream a reality! It's completely in reach.
Here's an idea: work up 30 mins of performance material, and then volunteer to perform at a retirement home.
Those folks are starving for entertainment, and they'd LOVE to hear the steel played on songs their parents loved.
You can take that same 30 min performance, and play the same show at 10 different retirement homes.
Before you know it, you'll have 45 mins of material, and just take it from there. Who knows how far you can go.
Enjoy!
Aloha,
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
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Walter Webb
- Posts: 176
- Joined: 16 Feb 2020 5:12 pm
- Location: California, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Mike Neer put out a book of BeBop arrangements for C6 lapsteel, and his album "Steelonius" a tribute to Monk is right up your alley.
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J D Sauser
- Moderator
- Posts: 3329
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Wellington, Florida
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Thanks so much to everyone who’s replied so far — it’s great to see such varied perspectives and experience on what is admittedly a bit of a niche journey.
I really appreciate how folks are bringing different ideas about tunings, stylistic directions and what “jazz” on non-pedal steel can mean. Twayn’s thoughts about interval relationships and alternate tunings are fascinating, Paul’s honesty about bebop vs. swing really resonates, and David’s lifetime of experience across instruments adds a lot of depth to the conversation. Michael, Tim... great posts which show insight and thus interest.
A couple of thoughts I’d like to share — not as rules of how anyone should play, but more as an invitation to explore something together:
On the music side:
• I’m not interested in debating what is or isn’t officially “jazz” — there are many valid approaches, from swing to bebop and beyond. What matters to me is the creative pursuit of single-note language and harmonic fluency that isn’t bound to the typical country or western steel vocabulary.
• Part of what excites me about this is the idea of cross-pollinating ideas — not to end up all sounding the same, but to help each of us further develop our own individual voice on this instrument, much the way jazz players historically did in places like Manhattan, Chicago, Los Angeles or New Orleans. That kind of exchange is often what leads to real growth.
On collaboration:
I’d love to throw out a practical idea: maybe a few of us could meet online and exchange ideas in real time — jamming, sharing lines, talking harmony, phrasing, practice approaches, etc. Not to lock down a single “right” approach, but simply to learn from each other.
I realize there’s always a balance between sharing hard-won concepts and keeping some things close, and I completely respect that. Still, there’s a tremendous amount of experience represented here, and I suspect we’d all gain something by hearing each other play and think out loud.
If there’s interest, we could for example:
• Set up a small Zoom / Meet style session (with music-friendly audio settings)
• Share specific licks, progressions or concepts we’re currently working on
• Keep it informal and exploratory — no pressure, no stylistic agenda
Just an idea, and no obligation whatsoever. If even a couple of folks are interested, I’d be happy to help organize something.
Thanks again for all the thoughtful input so far — I’m really enjoying the discussion and learning from it.
... J-D.
I really appreciate how folks are bringing different ideas about tunings, stylistic directions and what “jazz” on non-pedal steel can mean. Twayn’s thoughts about interval relationships and alternate tunings are fascinating, Paul’s honesty about bebop vs. swing really resonates, and David’s lifetime of experience across instruments adds a lot of depth to the conversation. Michael, Tim... great posts which show insight and thus interest.
A couple of thoughts I’d like to share — not as rules of how anyone should play, but more as an invitation to explore something together:
On the music side:
• I’m not interested in debating what is or isn’t officially “jazz” — there are many valid approaches, from swing to bebop and beyond. What matters to me is the creative pursuit of single-note language and harmonic fluency that isn’t bound to the typical country or western steel vocabulary.
• Part of what excites me about this is the idea of cross-pollinating ideas — not to end up all sounding the same, but to help each of us further develop our own individual voice on this instrument, much the way jazz players historically did in places like Manhattan, Chicago, Los Angeles or New Orleans. That kind of exchange is often what leads to real growth.
On collaboration:
I’d love to throw out a practical idea: maybe a few of us could meet online and exchange ideas in real time — jamming, sharing lines, talking harmony, phrasing, practice approaches, etc. Not to lock down a single “right” approach, but simply to learn from each other.
I realize there’s always a balance between sharing hard-won concepts and keeping some things close, and I completely respect that. Still, there’s a tremendous amount of experience represented here, and I suspect we’d all gain something by hearing each other play and think out loud.
If there’s interest, we could for example:
• Set up a small Zoom / Meet style session (with music-friendly audio settings)
• Share specific licks, progressions or concepts we’re currently working on
• Keep it informal and exploratory — no pressure, no stylistic agenda
Just an idea, and no obligation whatsoever. If even a couple of folks are interested, I’d be happy to help organize something.
Thanks again for all the thoughtful input so far — I’m really enjoying the discussion and learning from it.
... J-D.
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Michael Kiese
- Posts: 490
- Joined: 17 Jul 2023 12:27 pm
- Location: Richmond, Virginia (Hometown: Pearl City, HI)
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Aloha JD,
I'm not opposed to zoom meet ups per se. While that idea has merit, I think there's an easier and more straight forward route for you than zoom meet-ups sharing licks and ideas...
1) Transcribe music off of YouTube. You can literally slow down any video and retain the pitch.
Find some musical performance on YouTube (regardless of instrument) that tickles your ear, and then do the painstaking work and transcribe by ear to get that language and vocabulary under your fingertips, and then you take that vocab and language on the bandstand.
There is no "secret" to transcribing by ear. You just do it. The reward is in the process. Pick something attainable at first, and then increase the level of difficulty.
2) Take lessons from Doug Jernigan, he is a great teacher, and he's happy to give lessons on straight steel. He straight up tabs out everything by hand, gives it to you 2 weeks before the lesson, so you can work it up, and then he works it with you back and forth on the zoom lesson, giving you tips on fingerings, picking patterns, and such.
Doing those two things is the most pragmatic and quickest route for you to achieve what you want. Start transcribing stuff by ear, do a little bit every day. Take a bunch of lessons from Doug. I think he only charges like $75 per lesson. If don't do those 2 things, then zoom meetings of trading licks really won't help much. You gotta work on your ear, you gotta work on tunes, and you gotta get the language under your fingertips, and then you gotta hit the bandstand.
What Buddy Emmons did was play impressive and blistering fast lines over swing tunes and American Standards. ii/V/I stuff. Not terribly complicated jazz harmony to navigate.
So to me, when you say "Bebopy" single note lines. It sounds to me like you want to play fast Jazz language over swing tunes like Buddy and Doug can. So go take lessons with Doug. He's available and always looking for students. Doug is every bit as good as Buddy ever was, and he's still around to learn from. Doug's a national treasure, and he's still alive.
We should all take advantage of Doug and learn from him while he's still around. I highly recommend him, he's a GREAT teacher!
Here's a bunch of YouTube recordings of Doug playing straight steel at the TSGA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1CASS3kZl8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY3ptUr ... rt_radio=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXca3Uy ... rt_radio=1
I'm not opposed to zoom meet ups per se. While that idea has merit, I think there's an easier and more straight forward route for you than zoom meet-ups sharing licks and ideas...
1) Transcribe music off of YouTube. You can literally slow down any video and retain the pitch.
Find some musical performance on YouTube (regardless of instrument) that tickles your ear, and then do the painstaking work and transcribe by ear to get that language and vocabulary under your fingertips, and then you take that vocab and language on the bandstand.
There is no "secret" to transcribing by ear. You just do it. The reward is in the process. Pick something attainable at first, and then increase the level of difficulty.
2) Take lessons from Doug Jernigan, he is a great teacher, and he's happy to give lessons on straight steel. He straight up tabs out everything by hand, gives it to you 2 weeks before the lesson, so you can work it up, and then he works it with you back and forth on the zoom lesson, giving you tips on fingerings, picking patterns, and such.
Doing those two things is the most pragmatic and quickest route for you to achieve what you want. Start transcribing stuff by ear, do a little bit every day. Take a bunch of lessons from Doug. I think he only charges like $75 per lesson. If don't do those 2 things, then zoom meetings of trading licks really won't help much. You gotta work on your ear, you gotta work on tunes, and you gotta get the language under your fingertips, and then you gotta hit the bandstand.
What Buddy Emmons did was play impressive and blistering fast lines over swing tunes and American Standards. ii/V/I stuff. Not terribly complicated jazz harmony to navigate.
So to me, when you say "Bebopy" single note lines. It sounds to me like you want to play fast Jazz language over swing tunes like Buddy and Doug can. So go take lessons with Doug. He's available and always looking for students. Doug is every bit as good as Buddy ever was, and he's still around to learn from. Doug's a national treasure, and he's still alive.
We should all take advantage of Doug and learn from him while he's still around. I highly recommend him, he's a GREAT teacher!
Here's a bunch of YouTube recordings of Doug playing straight steel at the TSGA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1CASS3kZl8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY3ptUr ... rt_radio=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXca3Uy ... rt_radio=1
Aloha,
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
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Tim Toberer
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: 23 Oct 2021 11:58 am
- Location: Nebraska, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
This could be cool JD. If you set something up let me know. I think most people have a desire to meet up with like minded people from time to time and the forum is really the wild west of steel guitar ideas, opinions and aspirations. It is a lonely pursuit for many and local opportunities are limited. While the internet is a great tool for learning, nothing comes close to real human interaction, which is where jazz comes from. My reservations are about how I always agree to do stuff then when it rolls around I find myself wishing I didn't lol! Mostly I am trying to find time in the shed which seems to scarce lately.J D Sauser wrote: 13 Jan 2026 7:00 am
On collaboration:
I’d love to throw out a practical idea: maybe a few of us could meet online and exchange ideas in real time — jamming, sharing lines, talking harmony, phrasing, practice approaches, etc. Not to lock down a single “right” approach, but simply to learn from each other.
There have been a few splinter groups I think they meet up on Facebook (don't have) mostly built around specific niche tuning. A steel guitar jazz enthusiast group could work, but it would need a catchy name.
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Pete Martin
- Posts: 166
- Joined: 29 Dec 2024 8:41 am
- Location: Washington, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
I’ve played bebop on mandolin for years. Studied the Barry Harris system for a good long time.
Started non pedal steel last February, learning western swing. After getting an 8 string and playing A6, I changed the bottom two string to G and Bb, then made them an octave higher. The tuning low to high (low 2 strings are reintrant).
g a# C# E F# A C# E
The bottom 4 strings give me a 4 string diminished. The top 6 strings are normal A6.
The advantage of this is many 3 string dominant seventh voicings. I can get all 12 dominant seventh chords within 3 frets, ANY 3 frets.
I am also using the Barry Harris 6th diminished chord scale ideas. If playing in C, these would be alternating C6 voicings with D diminished voicings. This is how pianists and guitarists from the bop era played chord melodies. Listen to most any Wes Montgomery chord solo (such as Gone With The Wind) and you hear these 6thdim chord ideas.
In the western swing band I’m in now, I play both 5 string electric mandolin and steel. I use the steel for chord solo sounds and the mandolin mostly for single note solos and of course comping. I don’t play single note solos on steel and doubt I’ll ever learn to as I have the mandolin for that.
If anyone is interested, I can post some music and tab of the Barry 6th diminished scale stuff in this tuning on here. Just let me know.
Pete
Started non pedal steel last February, learning western swing. After getting an 8 string and playing A6, I changed the bottom two string to G and Bb, then made them an octave higher. The tuning low to high (low 2 strings are reintrant).
g a# C# E F# A C# E
The bottom 4 strings give me a 4 string diminished. The top 6 strings are normal A6.
The advantage of this is many 3 string dominant seventh voicings. I can get all 12 dominant seventh chords within 3 frets, ANY 3 frets.
I am also using the Barry Harris 6th diminished chord scale ideas. If playing in C, these would be alternating C6 voicings with D diminished voicings. This is how pianists and guitarists from the bop era played chord melodies. Listen to most any Wes Montgomery chord solo (such as Gone With The Wind) and you hear these 6thdim chord ideas.
In the western swing band I’m in now, I play both 5 string electric mandolin and steel. I use the steel for chord solo sounds and the mandolin mostly for single note solos and of course comping. I don’t play single note solos on steel and doubt I’ll ever learn to as I have the mandolin for that.
If anyone is interested, I can post some music and tab of the Barry 6th diminished scale stuff in this tuning on here. Just let me know.
Pete
Non pedal steel, mandolin and fiddle transcriptions
https://www.petemartin.info/transcriptions.html
Free Western Swing, Jazz, Bluegrass instrumental recordings
https://www.petemartin.info/recordings.html
‘56 D8 Stringmaster, ‘58 T8 Stringmaster, 2003 DLX8 Stringmaster, Quilter MicroPro, Frenzel 5AC3
https://www.petemartin.info/transcriptions.html
Free Western Swing, Jazz, Bluegrass instrumental recordings
https://www.petemartin.info/recordings.html
‘56 D8 Stringmaster, ‘58 T8 Stringmaster, 2003 DLX8 Stringmaster, Quilter MicroPro, Frenzel 5AC3
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Michael Kiese
- Posts: 490
- Joined: 17 Jul 2023 12:27 pm
- Location: Richmond, Virginia (Hometown: Pearl City, HI)
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Aloha Pete!Pete Martin wrote: 15 Jan 2026 3:50 pm I’ve played bebop on mandolin for years. Studied the Barry Harris system for a good long time.
Started non pedal steel last February, learning western swing. After getting an 8 string and playing A6, I changed the bottom two string to G and Bb, then made them an octave higher. The tuning low to high (low 2 strings are reintrant).
g a# C# E F# A C# E
The bottom 4 strings give me a 4 string diminished. The top 6 strings are normal A6.
The advantage of this is many 3 string dominant seventh voicings. I can get all 12 dominant seventh chords within 3 frets, ANY 3 frets.
I am also using the Barry Harris 6th diminished chord scale ideas. If playing in C, these would be alternating C6 voicings with D diminished voicings. This is how pianists and guitarists from the bop era played chord melodies. Listen to most any Wes Montgomery chord solo (such as Gone With The Wind) and you hear these 6thdim chord ideas.
In the western swing band I’m in now, I play both 5 string electric mandolin and steel. I use the steel for chord solo sounds and the mandolin mostly for single note solos and of course comping. I don’t play single note solos on steel and doubt I’ll ever learn to as I have the mandolin for that.
If anyone is interested, I can post some music and tab of the Barry 6th diminished scale stuff in this tuning on here. Just let me know.
Pete
Heck ya, I'm interested in hearing you applying your 6th diminished chord scale ideas. I understand the concept, but seeing it in action would be a gift.
I'm wondering if you alternate between the top 4 and bottom 4 strings, or if you play through the bottom 4 and somehow get the maj6 voicings through slants on the diminished string set.
Thanks!
Aloha,
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
Mike K
1935 A22 Rickenbacher Frypan (C6), 1937 7string Prewar Rickenbacher Bakelite (C Diatonic), 1937 7string Epiphone Electar (Jerry Byrd's E9), 1937 Epiphone Electar (C#m9), 1940's Post War Rickenbacher Bakelite (Feet's D), 1950 Supro (Open F), 1950's Rickenbacher ACE (C6), 1950's Rickenbacher A25 Frypan (A6), 1957 National New Yorker (Jerry's E13), 1955 Q8 Fender Stringmaster (A6, C6, Noel's E13, C Diatonic), 1961 Supro (Open A), 8string VanderDonck Frypan (Buddy Emmons's C6).
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Tim Toberer
- Posts: 1237
- Joined: 23 Oct 2021 11:58 am
- Location: Nebraska, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Pete you are learning quickly, but I suppose it really helps having the background in swing and the involvement with a group. Keep it up!Pete Martin wrote: 15 Jan 2026 3:50 pm
Started non pedal steel last February, learning western swing. After getting an 8 string and playing A6, I changed the bottom two string to G and Bb, then made them an octave higher. The tuning low to high (low 2 strings are reintrant).
g a# C# E F# A C# E
The bottom 4 strings give me a 4 string diminished. The top 6 strings are normal A6.
The advantage of this is many 3 string dominant seventh voicings. I can get all 12 dominant seventh chords within 3 frets, ANY 3 frets.
I use the steel for chord solo sounds and the mandolin mostly for single note solos and of course comping. I don’t play single note solos on steel and doubt I’ll ever learn to as I have the mandolin for that.
Pete
I played around with this exact tuning a few years ago (minus the re-entratnt strings, brilliant by the way) after getting the idea from watching Mikiya Matsuda who uses a couple versions like this and had I just stuck with plain steel I would use this too. It is also an easy retune from A6 with the lower intervals as long as your string gauges are a little light.
Using diminished chords in steel guitar tunings is such a cool hack because it is really 4 separate 7b9 chords without a root. Omit any note (b9) and you have a 3 - 5 and a b7. Thus all 12 dominant chords within 3 frets. Then they just repeat. So cool! Having the dissonant intervals on the bottom makes them easy to avoid. This tuning has all the goods.
For single line altered dominant (diminished) licks, those notes will come in very handy also, but accepting the limitations of this instrument for single note melody is very understandable. That said if you do make any headway in that direction please share because I think the Pete Martin tuning could be phenomenal in this respect!
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Gary Meixner
- Posts: 318
- Joined: 9 Sep 2009 3:48 pm
- Location: New York, USA
Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
Pete and others,
I have been reading this thread with interest and very much appreciate your posts. I discovered this same 4 note diminished grouping while fiddling with my eight-string guitar tuned to C13. Jerry Bryd would often alter his six-string, C6 guitar, by raising the lower C to C# giving him an A7 on the bottom four strings. Making this change on an eight- string C13 tuning gives you the same diminished chord that you have applied to your A6 tuned guitar. I have found there is a lot of utility in this tuning, although I haven’t studied it in detail and would love hear more from somebody who is more skilled than I in jazz theory. Regarding the original post: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here? - I am hardly a jazz player and Bebop is beyond my grasp but would love to see you pursue the study of this subject on the forum.
Best regards,
Gary
I have been reading this thread with interest and very much appreciate your posts. I discovered this same 4 note diminished grouping while fiddling with my eight-string guitar tuned to C13. Jerry Bryd would often alter his six-string, C6 guitar, by raising the lower C to C# giving him an A7 on the bottom four strings. Making this change on an eight- string C13 tuning gives you the same diminished chord that you have applied to your A6 tuned guitar. I have found there is a lot of utility in this tuning, although I haven’t studied it in detail and would love hear more from somebody who is more skilled than I in jazz theory. Regarding the original post: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here? - I am hardly a jazz player and Bebop is beyond my grasp but would love to see you pursue the study of this subject on the forum.
Best regards,
Gary
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Mike Neer
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Re: Who's into JAZZ, y mean Bebop etc on non-pedal here?
I love Jazz and have been around it in some way musically since high school, which was many years ago when I was in the first guitar chair in the jazz band. I wasn't any good at it then, though. At some point, I realized the work it was going to take to become proficient in playing Jazz, and while I loved it, it wasn't enough to make me push aside everything else, which is kind of necessary for a few years at that stage. I realized I wanted to play rock and funk but with those jazz elements to keep the playing exciting and full of surprises. I studied with a few heavy cats when I could afford to, even if only briefly.
Anyway, I play jazz for the love of it when I feel like it, but these days I have stripped things down to the essence.
I am wrapping up workshops on chord melody playing, with still another episode or two to cover the block chord styles of Red Garland and Barry Harris, as much as that is possible for me on lap steel. But I think the next topic is going to be on improvisation in the swing and jump blues style, graduating to bebop to a limited degree. There are many factors to consider in tackling this topic, one of which is technique.
Next weekend I will be the featured soloist with a jazz nonet where we will play Monk’s Ask Me Now, Mingus’s Peggy’s Blue Skylight, and a brand new arrangement of Ravel’s Pavane pour une infante défunte, which arrangement I conceived and my compadre arranged for nonet. Little things like this keep me going.
Anyway, I play jazz for the love of it when I feel like it, but these days I have stripped things down to the essence.
I am wrapping up workshops on chord melody playing, with still another episode or two to cover the block chord styles of Red Garland and Barry Harris, as much as that is possible for me on lap steel. But I think the next topic is going to be on improvisation in the swing and jump blues style, graduating to bebop to a limited degree. There are many factors to consider in tackling this topic, one of which is technique.
Next weekend I will be the featured soloist with a jazz nonet where we will play Monk’s Ask Me Now, Mingus’s Peggy’s Blue Skylight, and a brand new arrangement of Ravel’s Pavane pour une infante défunte, which arrangement I conceived and my compadre arranged for nonet. Little things like this keep me going.
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